The story of Paula Deen has been long known even to casual television fans. A rags-to-riches cooking-show star, Deen was at the height of her powers in 2013 when it all blew up in her face.
After building an impossibly large retail, publishing and cable TV empire, the butter-heavy Southern-cooking guru became embroiled in controversy when she told lawyers in a discrimination-lawsuit deposition (filed by an employee at her brother’s restaurant) that “yes, of course,” she had used the N-word in the past. Before long, Deen’s empire had crumbled, with everyone from Walmart to Food Network jumping ship.
(The racial discrimination part of the lawsuit, which alleged that Deen and her brother Bubba had discriminated against Black employees and made racist comments, was dismissed because the judge said the plaintiff, who was white, had no standing; the rest of the lawsuit, including alleged sexual harassment by Bubba, would end up being withdrawn in what legal experts believe was a settlement.)
At 78, Deen is back and looking for redemption. She and her two sons/business partners, Jamie and Bobby, participated in a new documentary with Billy Corben, the veteran director (Cocaine Cowboys), in which Deen seeks to explain her views and why she feels she got a raw deal as she alleged that the plaintiff’s claims of racist behavior were invented. Canceled: The Paula Deen Story had its world premiere at the Toronto International Film Festival on Saturday as it seeks distribution. On Sunday, Paula, Jamie and Bobby Deen sat down at festival hotel with The Hollywood Reporter. The trio had a few things to say.
So I get the sense one of you was less excited about this film than the others.
BOBBY DEEN I’m excited for it and I thought it was a terrible idea from the beginning. I mean, honestly. It just felt like a lot of time had passed. I didn’t see the reason to go back and over it and rehash it. Because we had survived it. As a family, we had survived it. Our business had survived it. We had taken the hit and we’d done it. In the moment it was really super-painful and I just didn’t want to go through the pain again and I was hoping to protect my mom from that pain again. I just thought, “Why?”
Like, people have already made up their minds so there’s no point trying to convince them?
BOBBY DEEN That’s it. People believe what they want to to believe and the people who don’t like you already don’t like you and they won’t like you no matter what the film looks like at the end. The people that do love you are always going to be with you and they always have been.
PAULA DEEN Son, this is something that ate at my gut every day. I would have been fine had the whole story been told — had the real story been told. They took this woman [the plaintiff], who is a known liar, they took her word and ran with it, and no one every investigated any further. I was not going to be happy until the world saw the truth.
And you felt that from 2013 until now that story hasn’t gotten out?
PAULA DEEN I forever had my antennas up looking for the right people. I had gotten a couple of [documentary] offers before, but they were not who I wanted to be associated with, they didn’t have the clout that I felt this film deserved. When I was told that we were trying to get Billy as the director, we were so excited.
BOBBY DEEN There’s just a lot of risk here — a ton of risk here. Because a good documentarian is going to search for every person he can find and every thing he can find, for the truth of the matter. There’s just a risk involved.
To the reputation of the business — ?
PAULA DEEN We lost it all.
BOBBY DEEN I disagree with that.
I mean, you did Dancing With the Stars, you still have restaurants open —
BOBBY DEENMom, I’m sorry to correct you. We have not lost it all. By far. Our family is intact. We’re alive. This was 2013, a long time ago. And our beautiful business has thrived and survived this whole time. We have beautiful families. We have far from lost everything. Far from it.
PAULA DEEN Son, when I say I lost everything, within 24 hours I lost every job I had. Food Network was first to jump off, then Walmart, Target. … It was just everybody.
BOBBY DEEN Oh, I’m aware.
Seeing those friends and allies leave must have been heart-wrenching.
PAULA DEEN Heart-wrenching. Because these people knew me. But they weren’t willing to buck the ink.
BOBBY DEEN [Stage-whispers to Paula] They’re also not your friends.
PAULA DEEN I’ll tell you what. Somebody showed me how to get to Facebook, because I’m computer illiterate. Which is probably good. Because if i don’t see it it can’t bother me.
I can only imagine how hard it was to lose those partnerships. But also I think a lot of people from the outside would look at this and agree with Bobby that you’re doing OK all in all.
PAULA DEEN I’m not OK in here [points to her chest]. I’m not OK in here. Until both sides get out, the whole entire dirty truth.
Jamie, how did you feel about this project?
JAMIE DEEN I come from a different angle than my brother. I mean, It was terrible and I don’t want to redo it anymore either. It was the hardest thing ever. But I’m here for Mom. That’s it. Mom feels like this is an opportunity, and my prayer is she will get what she needs from this.
PAULA DEEN I kind of want my soul back.
JAMIE DEEN I don’t know if she will get it back. And I told her that. I told her, “I don’t know if you’re going to get what you want out of this, Mama. But if you wanna try, I’m going to try.” When Billy became tied to the project, I was ecstatic for Mom. I said, “Billy is your guy. Billy smells bullshit from 1,000 miles away.” And he told us Day 1, “If you tell us the truth, everything’s gonna be great.” I gave him two videotapes with no idea what was on it; they’re over 25 years old. I said, “Here, use anything on it that you want.” I trust him and that’s why we’re here.
Now, Paula, you had issued that video apology not long after the controversy came to light. How did that —
PAULA DEEN They made me. They brought me to N.Y.. These two men I couldn’t tell you who they were —
JAMIE DEEN Let’s straighten this up. Nobody made you apologize. The parameters they put you under, this team that you had up here, that —
PAULA DEEN It was two men and it was a big, big tall building in Manhattan.
JAMIE DEEN How tall was it Mama?
PAULA DEEN It was so tall.
Not a good place for truth, those skyscrapers?
[Laughter]
PAULA DEEN No, and they took me upstairs and introduced me to these two men and they said, “You need to put out an apology.” And I said, “What am I apologizing for? What am I supposed to be sorry about? I told the truth [at the deposition].” They said, “Oh, you have done something wrong. Now come on in this room and sit down and do a heartfelt apology.” So I tried. They were not supposed to release it until my team had approved it. I couldn’t approve walking across the street. I was broken. I was totally broken. So I tried to do another one. And they said, “I guess that’s the best we’re going to get from you.” Because I didn’t know what I was supposed to be apologizing for. For being truthful when the other side had lied?
I guess it was less about the deposition and more the fact that you had used the word in the past, which you obviously felt bad about, right? That was what the apology was about?
PAULA DEEN They asked me a question [at the deposition]. This group of attorneys from an established well-thought-of firm. They were horrible; they were horrible. The lawyer sitting there with me never opened his mouth. Not one time. So when they asked that question [about the N-word] I said, “Yes, of course.” I’m 65 years old [at the time] and raised in the South, I said, “Yes, of course.” BUT that word has been out of our vocabulary now for a long time, and I said you can ask my oldest grandchild, you could say that word to him, and he would ask what it meant and not have a clue. My daddy taught me when I was a teenager, he told me, “I don’t ever want to ever hear you being mean or rude to anyone.” That’s how I was raised.
Many people who know you will say you don’t have hate in your heart. But do you understand from the other side how people might be uncomfortable about someone who is so direct about the usage of the word. Did that make sense to you as a reaction? Or is that something you still don’t quite get?
PAULA DEEN Oh no, I got that. Because the word always kind of made me shiver. But there was a time that the Black community was changing its name. First it started out as Negro, and then Black and then I don’t know, there were many words. But that one word, it made my skin crawl. It was just so far from who I am. So far. And I have many Black friends. Many Black friends that I love very much. And they love me.
Did you talk to them while this was going on?
PAULA DEEN I don’t remember. All of a sudden my team was gone and my agent was gone and they brought in these people. I don’t know who they were One crisis manager told me I had done something very bad.
Can I ask: If you were giving the deposition again now, would you do anything differently?
PAULA DEEN Yes I would. I’d get an attorney who had a tongue.
OK, but if you had the same attorney and got asked the same question, would you say, “Yes, of course,” or would you lie about it?
PAULA DEEN You know somebody told me there are words I don’t recall…
[Everyone laughs]
OK, a dodge. I suppose that would have been an option. [Pause] I guess what a lot of readers want to know is if you wish you would have done anything differently?
PAULA DEEN My heavens, yes.
In what regard?
PAULA DEEN You know it was funny, I came home from work one day and there were five lawyers standing in my kitchen and I said, “What are y’all doing here?” They were all very somber and laid out the suit against me. And I read it and said, “I never said those words in my whole life.” I said this is bullshit and I gave it back to them, and I said, “I’m not paying that woman for a bunch of lies.”
And do you now wish you had just settled as some voices in the film say you should have done?
PAULA DEEN If I had someone with a brain in my ear saying, “Paula, you need to look at this as a business decision.” I had no one doing it.
Finally, I want to ask you about the idea of cancellation. Does it feel fair, the consequences, especially given that some people have come back? Is this movie about being uncanceled?
JAMIE DEEN It was a terrible canceling — I worked for 13 more years! Nobody canceled the right stuff. [Laughter]
PAULA DEEN Well they choose the ones that they want to forgive. I think it just depends on who’s got an ax to grind and who is jealous. Martha Stewart, what she was accused of was illegal. She went to prison. Yet she came back and is as successful as ever.
BOBBY DEEN By me, it’s not an attempt as to wash it away. I mean certain opportunities go away after something like this. But you aren’t ever really canceled.
PAULA DEEN All I want is the whole story out. That’s all I want.